JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

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JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

dc tech
Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the community still pretty active?

Happy Holidays to everyone !
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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Donald Winston
I think the mailing list is on vacation for the holidays. I sent one message a couple of days ago and it fell into a black hole.


On Dec 30, 2010, at 11:26 AM, dc tech wrote:

> Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the community still pretty active?
>
> Happy Holidays to everyone !





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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Wolfgang Laun-2
At this time of the year, on the northern hemisphere, it's more likely to be a white hole.

Just wait until the thaw sets in ;-)

-W


On 30 December 2010 20:02, Donald Paul Winston <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the mailing list is on vacation for the holidays. I sent one message a couple of days ago and it fell into a black hole.


On Dec 30, 2010, at 11:26 AM, dc tech wrote:

> Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the community still pretty active?
>
> Happy Holidays to everyone !





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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Ross Mohan
So it's jess us folks here, until the thaw, eh?
 
 
-ross
--- On Thu, 12/30/10, Wolfgang Laun <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Wolfgang Laun <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 2:56 PM

At this time of the year, on the northern hemisphere, it's more likely to be a white hole.

Just wait until the thaw sets in ;-)

-W


On 30 December 2010 20:02, Donald Paul Winston <satchwinston@...> wrote:
I think the mailing list is on vacation for the holidays. I sent one message a couple of days ago and it fell into a black hole.


On Dec 30, 2010, at 11:26 AM, dc tech wrote:

> Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the community still pretty active?
>
> Happy Holidays to everyone !





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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

soc.frangis
In reply to this post by dc tech
Agree with Donald, were on holiday.

"Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
-Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
however.

With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.

Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
"Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"


On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the
> mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now
> a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the
> community still pretty active?
> Happy Holidays to everyone !



--
V/R
-Socrates Frangis
-Mathematician & Software Engineer




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

dc tech
>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5 years back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to build a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine what steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a rules engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.

Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using the Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes with rules. 

Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.


On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Agree with Donald, were on holiday.

"Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
-Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
however.

With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.

Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
"Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"


On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the
> mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now
> a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the
> community still pretty active?
> Happy Holidays to everyone !



--
V/R
-Socrates Frangis
-Mathematician & Software Engineer




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Wolfgang Laun-2
In reply to this post by Ross Mohan
On 30 December 2010 21:14, Ross Mohan <[hidden email]> wrote:
So it's jess us folks here, until the thaw, eh?
 

Jess and snow ;-)

To Jess, her Father and all midhusbands and midwifes: continuing success and no stack dumps in 2011!

-W

 
 
-ross
--- On Thu, 12/30/10, Wolfgang Laun <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Wolfgang Laun <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 2:56 PM

At this time of the year, on the northern hemisphere, it's more likely to be a white hole.

Just wait until the thaw sets in ;-)

-W


On 30 December 2010 20:02, Donald Paul Winston <satchwinston@...> wrote:
I think the mailing list is on vacation for the holidays. I sent one message a couple of days ago and it fell into a black hole.


On Dec 30, 2010, at 11:26 AM, dc tech wrote:

> Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the community still pretty active?
>
> Happy Holidays to everyone !





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RE: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Debasish.Dalui
In reply to this post by dc tech
Not sure how much other rule engine like Drools, ILOG JRule etc. can help for creating a 'guided navigation' type of application. The basic reason, we might find with the JESS's farmer's dillema example, which is not available in Drools, ILOG JRules etc.
 
Anyway, just for my curiosity, I was trying to modify the above example using Java POJO instead of defining the 'deftemplate', and 'deffacts' from inside the rule, and it is working fine as expected. Next step, I was trying to replicate the same using Drools and ILOG JRules; but as of my understanding with my limited knowledge, I simply cannot do it, because, Drools/ILOG JRules does not providing few important concepts, what JESS is providing from it's begining, like -- rule *auto-focus* as TRUE/FALSE concept. There are many more, still need to find. If there is any alterative to the above solution, please let me know.
 
Happy New Year to everyone. Enjoy! :)
 
 
Regards
 
DEBASISH DALUI (122816)
----------------------------------------------
Cognizant Technology Solutions US Corp

 
________________________________

From: [hidden email] on behalf of dc tech
Sent: Fri 12/31/2010 12:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?


>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5 years back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to build a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine what steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a rules engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.

Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using the Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes with rules.

Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.


On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis <[hidden email]> wrote:


        Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
       

        "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
       
        -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
        exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
        however.
       
        With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
        it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
        bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
        get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
        for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
       
        Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
        Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
        "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
       


        On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
        > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that the
        > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing now
        > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the
        > community still pretty active?
        > Happy Holidays to everyone !
       
       
       
       
        --
        V/R
        -Socrates Frangis
        -Mathematician & Software Engineer
       




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        in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Friedman-Hill, Ernest
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Laun-2
Happy holidays to all!


On Dec 31, 2010, at 5:02 AM, Wolfgang Laun wrote:

> On 30 December 2010 21:14, Ross Mohan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> So it's jess us folks here, until the thaw, eh?
>
>
> Jess and snow ;-)
>
> To Jess, her Father and all midhusbands and midwifes: continuing  
> success and no stack dumps in 2011!
>
> -W
>
>
>
> -ross
> --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Wolfgang Laun <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> From: Wolfgang Laun <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 2:56 PM
>
> At this time of the year, on the northern hemisphere, it's more  
> likely to be a white hole.
>
> Just wait until the thaw sets in ;-)
>
> -W
>
>
> On 30 December 2010 20:02, Donald Paul Winston  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think the mailing list is on vacation for the holidays. I sent one  
> message a couple of days ago and it fell into a black hole.
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2010, at 11:26 AM, dc tech wrote:
>
> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice  
> that the mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how  
> Jess is doing now a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or  
> other engines? Is the community still pretty active?
> >
> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users  
> [hidden email]'
> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email]
> .
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------
Ernest Friedman-Hill
Informatics & Decision Sciences, Sandia National Laboratories
PO Box 969, MS 9012, Livermore, CA 94550
http://www.jessrules.com







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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Edson Tirelli-4
In reply to this post by dc tech
   May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?

http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu

   It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.

> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules / Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"

   It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
:)

   Cheers and Happy New Year!

   Edson


2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:

>>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
> Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5 years
> back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to build
> a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine what
> steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a rules
> engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
> similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
> Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using the
> Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
> with rules.
> Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
>>
>> "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
>> -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
>> exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
>> however.
>>
>> With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
>> it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
>> bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
>> get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
>> for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
>>
>> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
>> "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that
>> > the
>> > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing
>> > now
>> > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the
>> > community still pretty active?
>> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> V/R
>> -Socrates Frangis
>> -Mathematician & Software Engineer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

dc tech
Thank's Edson. Will check it out.
Drools seems to have come a long compared to when I last looked at it - given that you have a foot in both camps, any wisdom and guidance would much appreciated. My bias is towards Jess, perhaps since I got introduced to rules engines with the excellent Jess book but is it worth looking at Drools?  I like the interactive 'protype'ability with Jess using the shell (still on 6.1). Does Drools have similar intractivity? We are developing using j
jRuby (RoR) or Java.

Thanks!

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
  May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?

http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu

  It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.

> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules / Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"

  It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
:)

  Cheers and Happy New Year!

  Edson


2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
>>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
> Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5 years
> back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to build
> a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine what
> steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a rules
> engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
> similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
> Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using the
> Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
> with rules.
> Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
>>
>> "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
>> -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
>> exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
>> however.
>>
>> With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
>> it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
>> bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
>> get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
>> for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
>>
>> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
>> "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that
>> > the
>> > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing
>> > now
>> > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the
>> > community still pretty active?
>> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> V/R
>> -Socrates Frangis
>> -Mathematician & Software Engineer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Peter Lin
edson is a member of drools team for those who don't know.



On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:01 PM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank's Edson. Will check it out.
> Drools seems to have come a long compared to when I last looked at it -
> given that you have a foot in both camps, any wisdom and guidance would much
> appreciated. My bias is towards Jess, perhaps since I got introduced to
> rules engines with the excellent Jess book but is it worth looking at
> Drools?  I like the interactive 'protype'ability with Jess using the shell
> (still on 6.1). Does Drools have similar intractivity? We are developing
> using j
> jRuby (RoR) or Java.
> Thanks!
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>   May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?
>>
>> http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu
>>
>>   It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
>> described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
>> write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
>> ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
>> myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.
>>
>> > Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> > Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based
>> > Systems"
>>
>>   It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
>> Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
>> developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
>> the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
>> competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
>> just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
>> building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
>> :)
>>
>>   Cheers and Happy New Year!
>>
>>   Edson
>>
>>
>> 2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
>> > Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5
>> > years
>> > back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to
>> > build
>> > a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine
>> > what
>> > steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a
>> > rules
>> > engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
>> > similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
>> > Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using
>> > the
>> > Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
>> > with rules.
>> > Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
>> >>
>> >> "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
>> >> -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
>> >> exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
>> >> however.
>> >>
>> >> With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
>> >> it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
>> >> bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
>> >> get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
>> >> for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
>> >>
>> >> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> >> Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
>> >> "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice
>> >> > that
>> >> > the
>> >> > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is
>> >> > doing
>> >> > now
>> >> > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is
>> >> > the
>> >> > community still pretty active?
>> >> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> V/R
>> >> -Socrates Frangis
>> >> -Mathematician & Software Engineer
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> >> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> >> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify
>> >> [hidden email].
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Edson Tirelli-4
In reply to this post by dc tech
   Hi,

   I will abstain myself from discussing Drools specific features in
this list, in respect to the other users and due to my involvement
with the other project, but I can tell you that if your bias is
towards Jess, go for it. As we all know it is an excellent engine, and
if we look at the rules engine alone, the choice between Jess and
Drools Expert IMHO is purely a matter of taste (syntax and API). The
differences between the 2 products will be more salient when you start
throwing into your analysis all other requirements, both functional
and non-functional, for your use case, as well as looking at the
ecosystem and other modules/products developed around them.

   Feel free to ask the Drools specific questions at the Drools
mailing list. Community there is also very friendly and active.

   Cheers,
   Edson


2011/1/1 dc tech <[hidden email]>:

> Thank's Edson. Will check it out.
> Drools seems to have come a long compared to when I last looked at it -
> given that you have a foot in both camps, any wisdom and guidance would much
> appreciated. My bias is towards Jess, perhaps since I got introduced to
> rules engines with the excellent Jess book but is it worth looking at
> Drools?  I like the interactive 'protype'ability with Jess using the shell
> (still on 6.1). Does Drools have similar intractivity? We are developing
> using j
> jRuby (RoR) or Java.
> Thanks!
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>   May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?
>>
>> http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu
>>
>>   It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
>> described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
>> write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
>> ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
>> myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.
>>
>> > Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> > Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based
>> > Systems"
>>
>>   It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
>> Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
>> developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
>> the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
>> competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
>> just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
>> building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
>> :)
>>
>>   Cheers and Happy New Year!
>>
>>   Edson
>>
>>
>> 2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
>> > Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5
>> > years
>> > back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to
>> > build
>> > a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine
>> > what
>> > steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a
>> > rules
>> > engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
>> > similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
>> > Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using
>> > the
>> > Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
>> > with rules.
>> > Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
>> >>
>> >> "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
>> >> -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
>> >> exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
>> >> however.
>> >>
>> >> With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
>> >> it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
>> >> bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
>> >> get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
>> >> for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
>> >>
>> >> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> >> Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
>> >> "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice
>> >> > that
>> >> > the
>> >> > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is
>> >> > doing
>> >> > now
>> >> > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is
>> >> > the
>> >> > community still pretty active?
>> >> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> V/R
>> >> -Socrates Frangis
>> >> -Mathematician & Software Engineer
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> >> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> >> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify
>> >> [hidden email].
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>



--
  Edson Tirelli
  JBoss Drools Core Development
  JBoss by Red Hat @ www.jboss.com




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Wolfgang Laun-2
In reply to this post by dc tech
This is a little like asking "I'm drinking Sauternes and I like it a lot - should I look at Burgundy?"

If you are not willing to do your homework (i.e., the evaluation of the pros and cons of these two systems for your own development and deployment scenario) yourself, the answers you'll get on either list for your question won't be able to help you much because the list of salient evaluation criteria is long, and a serious assessment requires intimate knowledge of your situation.

From a technician's point of view I'd say that it never hurts to look at another system to widen your horizon. The only risk I can see is that it might make you yearn for a system that has all of the goodies. ;-)

-W 


On 2 January 2011 00:01, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thank's Edson. Will check it out.
Drools seems to have come a long compared to when I last looked at it - given that you have a foot in both camps, any wisdom and guidance would much appreciated. My bias is towards Jess, perhaps since I got introduced to rules engines with the excellent Jess book but is it worth looking at Drools?  I like the interactive 'protype'ability with Jess using the shell (still on 6.1). Does Drools have similar intractivity? We are developing using j
jRuby (RoR) or Java.

Thanks!

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
  May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?

http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu

  It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.

> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules / Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"

  It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
:)

  Cheers and Happy New Year!

  Edson


2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
>>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
> Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5 years
> back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to build
> a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine what
> steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a rules
> engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
> similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
> Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using the
> Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
> with rules.
> Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.
>
> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
>>
>> "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
>> -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
>> exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
>> however.
>>
>> With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
>> it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
>> bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
>> get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
>> for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
>>
>> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
>> "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice that
>> > the
>> > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is doing
>> > now
>> > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is the
>> > community still pretty active?
>> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> V/R
>> -Socrates Frangis
>> -Mathematician & Software Engineer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

dc tech
In reply to this post by Edson Tirelli-4
Edson/Wolfgang:
Thank  you very much for your inputs.

Agree on the evaluation criteria - that the list of questions can be long and deep - and to be honest, I am not sure what those might be. Clearly, the approach to the ecosystem, support model and costs,  skills sets etc. all play a role in addition to the difference in the capabilities of the engines themselves. 

I will check out the Drools list list as well and again, look forward to inputs from this group.




On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
  Hi,

  I will abstain myself from discussing Drools specific features in
this list, in respect to the other users and due to my involvement
with the other project, but I can tell you that if your bias is
towards Jess, go for it. As we all know it is an excellent engine, and
if we look at the rules engine alone, the choice between Jess and
Drools Expert IMHO is purely a matter of taste (syntax and API). The
differences between the 2 products will be more salient when you start
throwing into your analysis all other requirements, both functional
and non-functional, for your use case, as well as looking at the
ecosystem and other modules/products developed around them.

  Feel free to ask the Drools specific questions at the Drools
mailing list. Community there is also very friendly and active.

  Cheers,
  Edson


2011/1/1 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
> Thank's Edson. Will check it out.
> Drools seems to have come a long compared to when I last looked at it -
> given that you have a foot in both camps, any wisdom and guidance would much
> appreciated. My bias is towards Jess, perhaps since I got introduced to
> rules engines with the excellent Jess book but is it worth looking at
> Drools?  I like the interactive 'protype'ability with Jess using the shell
> (still on 6.1). Does Drools have similar intractivity? We are developing
> using j
> jRuby (RoR) or Java.
> Thanks!
> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>   May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?
>>
>> http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu
>>
>>   It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
>> described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
>> write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
>> ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
>> myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.
>>
>> > Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> > Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based
>> > Systems"
>>
>>   It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
>> Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
>> developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
>> the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
>> competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
>> just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
>> building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
>> :)
>>
>>   Cheers and Happy New Year!
>>
>>   Edson
>>
>>
>> 2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
>> >>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
>> > Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5
>> > years
>> > back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to
>> > build
>> > a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine
>> > what
>> > steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a
>> > rules
>> > engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
>> > similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
>> > Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using
>> > the
>> > Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
>> > with rules.
>> > Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
>> >>
>> >> "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
>> >> -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
>> >> exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
>> >> however.
>> >>
>> >> With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
>> >> it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
>> >> bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
>> >> get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
>> >> for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
>> >>
>> >> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>> >> Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
>> >> "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice
>> >> > that
>> >> > the
>> >> > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is
>> >> > doing
>> >> > now
>> >> > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is
>> >> > the
>> >> > community still pretty active?
>> >> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> V/R
>> >> -Socrates Frangis
>> >> -Mathematician & Software Engineer
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> >> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> >> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify
>> >> [hidden email].
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>



--
  Edson Tirelli
  JBoss Drools Core Development
  JBoss by Red Hat @ www.jboss.com




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Edson Tirelli-4
In reply to this post by Peter Lin
   I thought I was clear in my message when I wrote:

"Being a Drools developer..."

   But thanks Peter, anyway.

   Edson

2011/1/1 Peter Lin <[hidden email]>:

> edson is a member of drools team for those who don't know.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:01 PM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thank's Edson. Will check it out.
>> Drools seems to have come a long compared to when I last looked at it -
>> given that you have a foot in both camps, any wisdom and guidance would much
>> appreciated. My bias is towards Jess, perhaps since I got introduced to
>> rules engines with the excellent Jess book but is it worth looking at
>> Drools?  I like the interactive 'protype'ability with Jess using the shell
>> (still on 6.1). Does Drools have similar intractivity? We are developing
>> using j
>> jRuby (RoR) or Java.
>> Thanks!
>> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>   May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?
>>>
>>> http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu
>>>
>>>   It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
>>> described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
>>> write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
>>> ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
>>> myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.
>>>
>>> > Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>>> > Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based
>>> > Systems"
>>>
>>>   It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
>>> Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
>>> developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
>>> the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
>>> competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
>>> just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
>>> building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
>>> :)
>>>
>>>   Cheers and Happy New Year!
>>>
>>>   Edson
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
>>> >>> Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
>>> > Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5
>>> > years
>>> > back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to
>>> > build
>>> > a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine
>>> > what
>>> > steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a
>>> > rules
>>> > engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
>>> > similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
>>> > Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using
>>> > the
>>> > Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
>>> > with rules.
>>> > Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis
>>> > <[hidden email]>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Agree with Donald, were on holiday.
>>> >>
>>> >> "Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
>>> >> -Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
>>> >> exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
>>> >> however.
>>> >>
>>> >> With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
>>> >> it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
>>> >> bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
>>> >> get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
>>> >> for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.
>>> >>
>>> >> Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
>>> >> Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
>>> >> "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >> > Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice
>>> >> > that
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is
>>> >> > doing
>>> >> > now
>>> >> > a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is
>>> >> > the
>>> >> > community still pretty active?
>>> >> > Happy Holidays to everyone !
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> V/R
>>> >> -Socrates Frangis
>>> >> -Mathematician & Software Engineer
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>>> >> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>>> >> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify
>>> >> [hidden email].
>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
>>> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
>>> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send the words 'unsubscribe jess-users [hidden email]'
> in the BODY of a message to [hidden email], NOT to the list
> (use your own address!) List problems? Notify [hidden email].
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>



--
  Edson Tirelli
  JBoss Drools Core Development
  JBoss by Red Hat @ www.jboss.com




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

James Owen-3
In reply to this post by Edson Tirelli-4
Edson et al:

I rarely get involved with this kind of thing but since there are more than 10 emails on the same subject and since Mark Proctor, Edson Tirelli and Dr. Friedman-Hill really shouldn't be drawn into the discussion due to a "conflict of interest" matter, and my friend and fellow instigator PL/ (woolfel) has not commented, may I be so bold as to interject these few thoughts:

1. There are about 25 or more BRMS/rulebased systems presently being used throughout the world.  In this space they seem to be grouped into commercial and free, or almost free for personal use.  Commercial systems can range from a few thousand to a few million US Dollars.  Free (or almost free systems - no such thing as a free lunch) systems will require lots of time and study to learn what the commercial guys can provide in a short period of time.  Also, most commercial vendors usually have schools for training purposes.

2a. EJFH has frequently mentioned that Jess is for programmers.  But, he has written a book, "Jess In Action", (a bit out of date by now but still spot-on applicable in most cases) and the on-line user's manual that is kept up to date really is quite good.  Read it!  Also, the Jess email list is quite as active as the Drools Users list and you can normally get a response within a few hours there.  In addition, there is a 3rd party Fuzzy Jess for those who want a bit "more" expert system approach to their system.  Jess comes with source code for an extra $100 but commercial applications have to be worked out with Sandia Labs.  Unfortunately, Jess is NOT available (legally) outside the USA but is totally free (with source code) to military, government and/or students/teachers at approved universities.

2b. If you are using C/C++ as your main system, then CLIPS (C Language Interface to Production Systems) is quite good and could be considered a superset of Jess.  In addition to the quite-excellent on-line manuals, they also have a book out by Dr. Joseph Girratano (University of Houston) and Gary Riley (formerly NASA but now independent) that is updated frequently and is on version 4 at the time of this email - I use the book for teaching CLIPS, CLIPS/R2 and, sometimes, to supplement the "Jess In Action" book By Dr. Friedman-Hill.  Unfortunately, I haven't found a similar email list to the ones maintained by Drools or Jess.  The latest version of CLIPS 6.3 compares quite favorably with OPSJ using Rete-2 on my performance testing.  CLIPS also allows various optimization conflict resolution strategies and comes with source code if you want to change things up a bit.

3.  Mark Proctor et cie developed Drools for the past few years and it was (years ago) a programmers-only language as well.  Recently however they are moving more toward the BRMS space with Guvnor and other tools to make it easier for the business user to use, create and/or modify the rules; and to compete with ILOG and Advisor.  They also have an active users email list and a developers email list.  (PLEASE  - do not take user questions to the developer list.)  They still lack factory consulting but you can purchase factory phone-in tech support from Red Hat, their parent company, or advertise for a Drools consultant on their home page.  In addition, there are two books on Drools (in addition to their on-line manual) available through Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Nerd Books, etc.

4  Commercial, Rete-based systems normally have an evaluation copy (usually a full working version that is time-bombed to quit working after an appropriate period of time.)  The biggies here are FICO Blaze Advisor (COBOL and .NET as well), IBM/ILOG JRules (COBOL and .NET as well), Pega Rules as part of the PegaSystems, MindBox for Mortgage Systems, and many others.  In addition to some kind of text rules, these tools usually employ highly sophisticated Decision Tables (spreadsheets), Decision Trees, Reporting tools, Trouble Shooting tools, Professional Services (Consulting), Factory technical support (of various levels), etc.  They are not cheap (usually $25K per developer seat) but, then, nobody ever got fired for using one of them.  Most use some form of enhanced Rete and Blaze Advisor uses Rete 2 licensed from Dr. Forgy discussed below.

5.  Non-Rete Commercial systems that might be considered could be Rule Burst (now owned by Oracle that also owns the Rete-based Haley Expert Systems), Visual Rules or Corticon (and others) that are, more or less, spreadsheet-based rule maintenance tools.  All of them have some kind of rule optimization in place.  These eye-catching models are far more familiar to the business users - and probably to your IT group and would compare to the Decision Tables from FICO, ILOG or Drools.  In addition, these companies also have Professional Services and/or telephone technical support available for a cost.  I have found that 75% or more of most business applications do not actually need Rete but Rete is better for large, enterprise rulebased systems that need a high performance factor. 

6. Prolog tools are abundantly available, usually free, and VisiRules (not Visual Rules) is a great commercial modeling tool if you are considering an expert system rather than just a gathering of rules.  My experience is that Prolog doesn't scale well to massive numbers of problems but is much better for extremely complicated and/or complex problems.  But, then, my experience with Prolog is limited to smaller problems so maybe I didn't approach it the right way.  

7.  For high-performance applications I always recommend that companies take a look at OPSJ from Production System Technologies (the company founded and still owned by Dr. Charles L. Forgy, the inventor of Rete.)  OPSJ (Java) uses, a proprietary algorithm from Dr. Fory that is from 50 - 100 times faster than most simple Rete systems and usually 10 - 20 times faster than most of today's improved Java-based Rete systems.  The cost of OPSJ was less than $10K about a year or so ago and has no run-time fees.  Also, Dr. Forgy recently announced Rete-NT that is about 10-12 times faster than Rete-2 but is priced based on the number of CPUs being used, usually about $5K per CPU.  Rete-NT is best for systems (such as Homeland Security, NASA or Military application) that need a rulebased system AND that need extremely high performance.  PST also has the C/C++ based CLIPS/R2 and other systems available for certain situations.  If you think that you need the performance from Rete-NT, (warning:  personal plug here) give me a call, or email, and let's talk about it first.

8.  May I suggest that if your firm is considering using one or the other of those discussed above, or any other BRMS / Rulebased System, that you call in a trusted, independent consultant, of which there are some walking the streets in these hard time, who has experience not only with these rulebased systems but maybe with many others as well.  That consultant (not myself but I could recommend several) would be able to listen to the requirements and advise as to which system might be the best for your situation.  Beware of those who are partners with only one or two major vendors because, right or wrong, that is the recommendation that you will get.  Be prepared to pay for their services - they have spent 10 to 20 years (or more) working with most of these systems and they are well aware of the benefits and pitfalls of most of them.

Hmmm...  Just a few thoughts.  But, this should be sufficient to explain that selecting the appropriate tool depends on the problem and the capabilities of the tools.  Most times I have found that the company didn't need a rulebased system (sometimes erroneously call Business Rule Management System - BRMS) at all.  Rather, it probably should have been coded in Java or C/C++; or even BASIC, FORTRAN or COBOL.  But using a BRMS / Rulebased System / Expert System would look cool on a CV so the IT guys (or the business guys) recommended it as a stepping stone for their next position.

Above all, once a tool has been selected, RTFM!!  Read The Fabulous Manual!!!  Before calling in or writing the email list.

I have CC'd both the Drools email list and the Drools Developers email list in the event that I misspoke anything about their (or another) product.  The very LAST thing that I want to do is start an email flurry (sometimes called a "flame war") on any of the lists.  These are my own personal opinions and do not reflect the positions of any of the trade-marked companies above nor of my own company, KnowledgeBased Systems Corporation, in any way, shape, form nor fashion.
 
SDG
jco

 
On Jan 1, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Edson Tirelli wrote:

  Hi,

  I will abstain myself from discussing Drools specific features in
this list, in respect to the other users and due to my involvement
with the other project, but I can tell you that if your bias is
towards Jess, go for it. As we all know it is an excellent engine, and
if we look at the rules engine alone, the choice between Jess and
Drools Expert IMHO is purely a matter of taste (syntax and API). The
differences between the 2 products will be more salient when you start
throwing into your analysis all other requirements, both functional
and non-functional, for your use case, as well as looking at the
ecosystem and other modules/products developed around them.

  Feel free to ask the Drools specific questions at the Drools
mailing list. Community there is also very friendly and active.

  Cheers,
  Edson


2011/1/1 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
Thank's Edson. Will check it out.
Drools seems to have come a long compared to when I last looked at it -
given that you have a foot in both camps, any wisdom and guidance would much
appreciated. My bias is towards Jess, perhaps since I got introduced to
rules engines with the excellent Jess book but is it worth looking at
Drools?  I like the interactive 'protype'ability with Jess using the shell
(still on 6.1). Does Drools have similar intractivity? We are developing
using j
jRuby (RoR) or Java.
Thanks!
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Edson Tirelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

  May I suggest you take a look at Tohu?

http://community.jboss.org/wiki/Tohu

  It is a small framework to do, it seems, exactly what you
described. It is built on top of Drools, but even if you prefer to
write your own framework on top of Jess, it can probably give you
ideas for your own design. Need to say, though, that I never used it
myself, so not sure how good/bad it is, but the video demo is nice.

Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
Drools Developer Book) recommends you read: "Jess in Action: Java Rule-based
Systems"

  It is an excellent book for people that want to learn about
Rule-based Systems, so why not recommend it? :) Being a Drools
developer, I can tell you that we always had a good relationship with
the Jess community, and we have much more to gain by cooperating than
competing. That is not to detract from one engine or the other, it is
just the open source way of promoting innovation and education and
building upwards from the shoulders of the giants that came first...
:)

  Cheers and Happy New Year!

  Edson


2010/12/31 dc tech <[hidden email]>:
Perhaps a little, but not greatly. ....
Am happy to hear. Jess was my first introduction to rules engines 4-5
years
back but did not use it for a production system. Now we are looking to
build
a 'guided navigation' type of app using Jess where the rules determine
what
steps does a user need to do. I am really excited to be able to use a
rules
engine for that type of application; I am sure many of you have built
similar things. Will keep you posted on questions/findings/lessons.
Not having done real development for many years, I really enjoyed using
the
Jess shell (still v6, from the book) and actually build small prototypes
with rules.
Agree on the Drools making rules more accessible.

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Socrates Frangis
<[hidden email]>
wrote:

Agree with Donald, were on holiday.

"Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines?"
-Perhaps a little, but not greatly. I will applaud Red Hat for
exposing more and more people to rule engines through open source
however.

With that said, I think the many users of Jess stick with it due to
it's maturity and 'rule engine features' as apposed to the convenient
bundling of open source middle-ware. I have the feeling that many will
get introduced to rule engines through Drools now, but when searching
for something that gets the job done they will sway elsewhere.

Lets not forget, even the Drools reference area (and JBoss Rules /
Drools Developer Book) recommends you read:
"Jess in Action: Java Rule-based Systems"


On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:26 AM, dc tech <[hidden email]> wrote:
Rejoining the Jess community after a multi-year hiatus and notice
that
the
mailing list has been very quiet.  I am curious to see how Jess is
doing
now
a days? Any impact from things like jBoss rules or other engines? Is
the
community still pretty active?
Happy Holidays to everyone !



--
V/R
-Socrates Frangis
-Mathematician & Software Engineer




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  Edson Tirelli
  JBoss Drools Core Development
  JBoss by Red Hat @ www.jboss.com




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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Friedman-Hill, Ernest

On Jan 2, 2011, at 4:19 PM, James Owen wrote:
>
>  Jess comes with source code for an extra $100 but commercial  
> applications have to be worked out with Sandia Labs.  Unfortunately,  
> Jess is NOT available (legally) outside the USA but is totally free  
> (with source code) to military, government and/or students/teachers  
> at approved universities.


Jim, I just wanted to clarify a bit, as there does seem to be a lot of  
misinformation out there concerning how Jess is licensed.

Jess is available under one of four main licensing agreements. Three  
of these options are available worldwide -- it is not true that Jess  
is unavailable outside the US. Source code is indeed available as part  
of many agreements, but in no case is it specifically available for  
$100.

First, Sandia offers a commercial license, comparable in cost to other  
commercial offerings; you can indeed license the source code, or just  
the binary. This is the most common arrangement.

Second, Jess is available free of charge for academic use at  
accredited institutions. This was Jess's original audience and we are  
happy to continue to serve them.

Third, Jess is available for a nominal fee to consultants and third-
party solution developers.

Fourth, because Jess is a product of a US government agency, it is  
available at no cost to other such agencies, subject to various rules  
and regulations.

---------------------------------------------------------
Ernest Friedman-Hill
Informatics & Decision Sciences          Phone: (925) 294-2154
Sandia National Labs
PO Box 969, MS 9012                            [hidden email]
Livermore, CA 94550                             http://www.jessrules.com





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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

James Owen-3
Ernest et al:

Sorry for the confusion on my part - which is why I included all of the email lists.  However, at one time (unless I have a really faulty memory chip) programmers outside of the USA used to complain because they could not get the source code (and sometimes the binary) because of the BATF regulations that considered computer source code as some kind of "munitions." 

Also, I personally did have to pay $100 for the source code way back when (about 2001 or 2002) unless I just wanted the binary version.  But, I have been allowed to download all of the upgrades since that time for free.

However, thanks for clarifying today's pricing options and showing that Jess is available world-wide, even with source.  That's great news!  Thanks,

Rose Bowl Results
TCU Horned Frogs, 21
Michigan Badgers, 19

TCU, a small private university, is located in little old Fort Worth, Texas - where the West begins.  :-)

SDG
jco
CoFounder DRG 2000
CoFounder ORF-2008/ORF-2009
CoFounder and Speaker (O)RF 2010
 
On Jan 2, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:


Jess is available under one of four main licensing agreements. Three of these options are available worldwide -- it is not true that Jess is unavailable outside the US. Source code is indeed available as part of many agreements, but in no case is it specifically available for $100.

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Re: JESS: Hello To Jess User Group and How Is Jess Doing?

Jason Morris

>>Rose Bowl Results
>>TCU Horned Frogs, 21
>>Michigan Badgers, 19


Geez James!

You can't even get the football scores right!  ;-p   It's the WISCONSIN Badgers, not Michigan.

BTW -- MSU should have gone to the Rose Bowl, not the Badgers.  Yes, I'm a Spartan. ;-)
I could have loaned the MSU coach a "Football Play" decision table taken from an ancient ART Enterprise manual I have.  Unfortunately, it didn't have a rule about what to do in case you perpetually turn the ball over, so in retrospect it wouldn't have been much use against Alabama. ;-)

Cheers,
Jason
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Morris Technical Solutions LLC
[hidden email]
(517) 304-5883